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H Pylori Transmission By Urine, can Barjammar please review?

How do you catch Hp? From your mother when she kisses you? From brothers and sisters as a small child? From sexual partners as adults (kissing)? From dirty water (fecal contamination)? From animals? Who knows???

Moderators: Toni, barjammar, stomach

Health Inquirer
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Re: H Pylori Transmission By Urine, can Barjammar please rev

Post by Health Inquirer » Mon Dec 01, 2014 1:11 am

Hello Helico Expert,

I apologize it took me a few days to respond. Between the holiday here and work, I have been very busy.
Regarding your comment, “i dont want to give you false information. So I dont know. Nevertheless, I am pretty certain that they will not live in dry environment at normal temperature.”
Okay, I completely understand and respect that you do not want to give me false information. I agree it won’t live in a dry environment at normal temperatures either. I just wish I had a rough idea how long it would live for in those conditions. I think that would be a great experiment for a lab to do. The public values information like that. Maybe your lab can do an experiment like that. ;)

Also, I was thinking about this comment you made and have a question about it.
Here you are missing an important factor. We call them the adhesin molecule. They are like hands to grab hold on something. So. H. pylori's adhesin molecule can only stick to the stomach wall. In addition, the constant going to the toilet is like constant flushing out liquid in the bladder. So, that add another challenge to all pathogen who has plan to infect the bladder. Surviving in whatever pH, with the right nutrient, and competition are three things. But the ability to stick to the wall and multiply at the very position is the main key to infection.
The idea of this adhesin molecule is interesting. It seems like the stomach is also something that is constantly being “flushed” out. There is always new food/liquids that go into and out of the stomach. So, I guess from knowing that one can determine that it is not the flushing out that makes it so an adhesin molecule cannot stick to the bladder wall, it is simply not a surface that particular adhesin molecule likes, is that correct?

Thank you again for all of your time and efforts, you are the best! :D

Helico_expert
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Re: H Pylori Transmission By Urine, can Barjammar please rev

Post by Helico_expert » Tue Dec 02, 2014 2:04 pm

I think that would be a great experiment for a lab to do. The public values information like that. Maybe your lab can do an experiment like that.
I'll try to get a high school student who wants some laboratory experience to conduct the experiment next time.
I guess from knowing that one can determine that it is not the flushing out that makes it so an adhesin molecule cannot stick to the bladder wall, it is simply not a surface that particular adhesin molecule likes, is that correct?
Yes, that's correct. The adhesin molecule determines where the pathogen binds and target. For example, coronavirus has the ability to target the upper respiratory tract and the gastrointestinal tract. The upper respiratory symptoms will be very similar to flu and cold. But if the patient also complain about the stomach pain and diarrhea, then it kinds of give you a clue that it's the coronavirus.

Health Inquirer
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Re: H Pylori Transmission By Urine, can Barjammar please rev

Post by Health Inquirer » Wed Dec 03, 2014 2:58 am

Hello Helico Expert,

I think that is a wonderful idea to have the high school students do an experiment to see how long the h pylori lasts in a dry environment/normal atmosphere/room temperature. If you do end up doing it, if you think of it, can you send me a private message to let me know it was posted?

Thank you for further explaining the adhesin molecule.

You have been so wonderful for all the time you have spent with me to help me understand the scientific nature of h pylori. You have helped me above and beyond anything I expected. You are very kind, patient, educational, and professional. This is a very generous offering of your time and expertise.

I am deeply grateful to you for all of your assistance. I wish you all the best.

Helico_expert
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Re: H Pylori Transmission By Urine, can Barjammar please rev

Post by Helico_expert » Wed Dec 03, 2014 9:12 pm

It's the least I can do. I'll keep in mind and message you the result once we have them.

Health Inquirer
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Re: H Pylori Transmission By Urine, can Barjammar please rev

Post by Health Inquirer » Thu Dec 04, 2014 2:38 am

Thank you, Helico Expert, that is very kind of you.
Best wishes to you.

Health Inquirer
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Re: H Pylori Transmission By Urine, can Barjammar please rev

Post by Health Inquirer » Fri Feb 27, 2015 8:56 am

Dear Helico Expert,

I started this post a while ago and I have a couple of questions about one of your posts. In your first reply to me, there were two statements made. They were this
H. pylori is very picky on where it likes to grow. It only grows in the stomach and not in the intestine, and not in the mouth. There are studies that showed scientist able to culture H. pylori from the mouth, I think that's just luck. We have tried many times and failed. I believe H. pylori only stay in the mouth for a very short period of time and then get out compete by the mouth flora.
and...
The transmission of H. pylori is not completely understood yet. Since most people cannot grow or find viable H. pylori from mouth, the oral-oral route transmission is still a myth. Then again, it has to be going through mouth as it is the only logical path. However, the bacterial load is not known. We dont know how many H. pylori is needed to successfully pass from patient to another.
Here are my questions:
1) When your lab has tried to find h pylori in the mouth, is your lab testing saliva or plaque?
2) I am wondering if I need to tell people I have kissed about h pylori, since it might be passed through the mouth? Should I tell people I kissed romantically? How about people I only gave a pec on the lips to?
3) Once someone gets h pylori, how long does it take to develop an ulcer?
4) I know some people say one might have had h pylori since childhood and not know until they are an adult. I am 35 years old. I found out about my h pylori because I developed an ulcer. So, is it possible I got it as a child and didn't know or is it more likely that I got the h pylori possibly a few months, years, or ________ before my ulcer came on?

I deeply appreciate your time to assist me with my inquiries. You all are very kind.

Helico_expert
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Re: H Pylori Transmission By Urine, can Barjammar please rev

Post by Helico_expert » Fri Feb 27, 2015 11:30 am

Here are my questions:
1) When your lab has tried to find h pylori in the mouth, is your lab testing saliva or plaque?
We used a cotton bud to get the saliva or cells from behind the throat of the patient. We believe that's the most likely place. We did not try plaque. I believe there will be too many bacteria there to compete for nutrient. H. pylori is a slow grower and cannot be competitive. Also, another interesting hypothesis. H. pylori has the ability to neutralize acid. If they exist in the plague, then they are preventing the bacteria corroding the tooth as the acid will be neutralised by H. pylori. however, that's just a theory. not tested or proven yet.

2) I am wondering if I need to tell people I have kissed about h pylori, since it might be passed through the mouth? Should I tell people I kissed romantically? How about people I only gave a pec on the lips to?
I believe that in order to successfully transmit H. pylori, first you need the right amount of bacteria, then the bacteria has to be able to enter the guts and colonize and multiply. If you keep your mouth clean, like brush your teeth every morning and after a meal, I dont think there will be enough H. pylori in the mouth to establish the transmission. Of course, reflux increases the chance. So, a good oral hygiene is the key.

3) Once someone gets h pylori, how long does it take to develop an ulcer?
nobody knows. it can be as quickly as a few weeks. or as long as 30-40 years or never. I believe it's how strong your immune response is to the organism. The stronger your immune response against H. pylori, the more likely you'll develop ulcer.

4) I know some people say one might have had h pylori since childhood and not know until they are an adult. I am 35 years old. I found out about my h pylori because I developed an ulcer. So, is it possible I got it as a child and didn't know or is it more likely that I got the h pylori possibly a few months, years, or ________ before my ulcer came on?
the general understanding is that people are infected during childhood time. because studies have shown that children as young as 2 years old already been infected with H. pylori. Of course, it is also possible to transmit H. pylori during adult hood. but given the fact that adults are common understood to be more aware of hygiene. unlike children, adults dont just put things in the mouth and then share that toy with other potential carrier. So, I would believe you had always been a carrier since childhood and only until recently, you developed ulcer.

Health Inquirer
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Re: H Pylori Transmission By Urine, can Barjammar please rev

Post by Health Inquirer » Sat Feb 28, 2015 11:28 am

Hello Helico Expert,

Thank you for your fast and thorough reply. You are truly amazing!

I have two questions about your responses.

1) You mention brushing your teeth in the morning and after every meal. What if you are only brushing your teeth once a day? Do you think that is enough? Or will that allow h pylori to grow since you are not brushing after meals also?

2) You stated,
The stronger your immune response against H. pylori, the more likely you'll develop ulcer.
I am wondering if you meant to say, the stronger your immune response against H. pylori, the least likely you'll develop ulcer?

Thank you again for all of your help.

Helico_expert
Site Admin
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Joined: Wed Mar 02, 2011 7:20 am

Re: H Pylori Transmission By Urine, can Barjammar please rev

Post by Helico_expert » Mon Mar 02, 2015 9:03 am

1) You mention brushing your teeth in the morning and after every meal. What if you are only brushing your teeth once a day? Do you think that is enough? Or will that allow h pylori to grow since you are not brushing after meals also?
it's a tug-of-war game. every time you brushes your teeth, the level of H. pylori drop to minimum. every time you reflux, the level of H. pylori increase. the key is reflux. I am assuming that you might experience some reflux after meal and when you are asleep that you are not aware of.
2) I am wondering if you meant to say, the stronger your immune response against H. pylori, the least likely you'll develop ulcer?
The stronger your immune response against H. pylori, the MORE likely you'll develop ulcer. This is because when H. pylori reached the gastric lining, the immune cells start gathering. They release signal to gather more inflammation factors to try fend off H. pylori. These inflammation factors are toxic to the gastric linings too. So, the stronger the immune response to H. pylori, the more damage is also dealt to the gastric lining.

Health Inquirer
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Re: H Pylori Transmission By Urine, can Barjammar please rev

Post by Health Inquirer » Mon Mar 02, 2015 10:21 am

Dear Helico Expert,

Thank you again for all of your time. You work so hard to help people understand and you even replied on the weekend! :D You truly assist me in having a greater understanding about this bacteria and my health.

My deepest gratitude to you.

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