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Live w/ H. pylore or Tx and restore gut bacteria

The various unpleasant manifestations of Helicobacter can be described here. Remember however that the great majority of persons with Hp have no symptoms that they are aware of and consider themselves normal.

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Barney Bartelle
Posts: 6
Joined: Sat Nov 19, 2011 2:42 am

Live w/ H. pylore or Tx and restore gut bacteria

Post by Barney Bartelle » Sat Nov 19, 2011 3:15 am

H. pylori Ab has been detected in my gut. I've had an ache in the upper left quadrant front and back for about six months; however, now it's has reduced over time to a small area of the front ulq left of the sternum and aches briefly about every two days since I began daily intake of raw goat milk kefir. While I am concerned about my over-all gut health that I'm working to restore after a hx of antibiotic solutions to illness, I'm also concerned that if I don't attempt to eradicate this bacterium I may be subject to ulcer and cancer development. I've had no other symptom other than the aforementioned ache and if it should continue to diminish could I live with this bacteria? If I do elect to follow my physician's advice and kill all my gut bacteria again, could I restore it through fecal bacteriotherapy from a new born and continue a regime of fermented foods?

Helico_expert
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Re: Live w/ H. pylore or Tx and restore gut bacteria

Post by Helico_expert » Sat Nov 19, 2011 8:50 am

is there really a need to restore your gut bacteria by fecal transplant? a simple antibiotic treatment have a success rate of 80% of removing the H. pylori.

Barney Bartelle
Posts: 6
Joined: Sat Nov 19, 2011 2:42 am

Re: Live w/ H. pylore or Tx and restore gut bacteria

Post by Barney Bartelle » Sat Nov 19, 2011 12:56 pm

My understanding is that once I I take a course of antibiotic Tx all flora in my gut will be eliminated; i.e., killed. Therefore, in order to regain some semblance of pre-Tx gut bacteria I will need to reintroduce flora. Some of these may come in the form of probiotics in kefir and yogurt, while others may come from other fermented foods. Further, flora from fecal material of a person, preferably a child also can help in this regard. This has been termed fecal bacteriotherapy and apparently has benefited suffers of ulcerative colitis. I also understand that once one uses antibiotics their health and maybe even their longevity is compromised. What I seek is some reassurance that once I elect to follow the recommended antibiotic Tx for H. pylori I can reasonably restore my gut biology. What do you recommend? It is also my understanding that while antibiotics may eliminate the problem bacteria, they also compromise one's immune responses. You know a great deal about Tx but what do you know about post Tx restoration of gut bacteria? What's the latest gut biology research indicate?

Helico_expert
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Re: Live w/ H. pylore or Tx and restore gut bacteria

Post by Helico_expert » Sat Nov 19, 2011 4:01 pm

you are right that when you take antibiotics, majority of your gut bacteria will be wiped out. however, they will grow back in time. almost very quickly once you stop taking antibiotics.

in some cases, the minority that resistant to antibiotics, happened to be pathogenic and produce toxin in your intestine and hence, diarrhea. usually refer to the side effect of the treatment.

however, in almost every case, once you stop antibiotic, your normal flora in your guts quickly grow back and suppress the evil one, and you'll be back to normal. in rare cases, the evil one cannot be suppressed, and you'll suffer longer guts problem, normally refer to irritable bowel syndrome.

in regards to antibiotic compromises immune responses, i assume you mean antibiotic suppress the immune system. then no. antibiotic is very specific to bacteria only. so, nothing to do with your immune system or immune responses. if you meant, because there is less gut bacteria, then there is less immune response, then yes... sort of. but that is not a bad thing.. i think. in conclusion, in this case, you dont need to worry about immune system and antibiotics that you will be taking.

the current gut biology research indicate that, it is by chance what gut bacteria grows back after antibiotic treatment.
have a read about this article
http://abc.gov.au/science/articles/2011 ... 261557.htm

Barney Bartelle
Posts: 6
Joined: Sat Nov 19, 2011 2:42 am

Re: Live w/ H. pylore or Tx and restore gut bacteria

Post by Barney Bartelle » Sun Nov 20, 2011 6:57 am

Thanks for your rapid reply. I may have been living with this organism for a long time and the only long term symptom since doing a life review is heartburn, acid reflux. However, it has never lasted but a matter of hours until about four years ago when it persisted and after returning home from living in a tropical country. I was treated for acid reflux, but not tested. I did not accept the Rx but took over-the-counter antacids for a couple of days and it subsided. Since then, periodically I'll have the symptom for hours then no recurrence for what seems like a long time. Early this year I had an ache from the front upper left quadrant around to the back upper left quadrant of my torso, which seemed like inflammation of the pleural lining of the lung; however, once I began taking kefir it has diminished to only one localized area to the left of the sternum. I told my physician and he ordered H.pylori testing and it returned positive. I appreciate the link you sent. I understand that once one cleans out the gut it can never be fully restored with the likelihood of diminished resistance to pathological organisms, and reduced immunological response. The physician indicates that an 80-90% success rate with Prevpac - (lansoprazole 30-mg) Capsules, (amoxicillin 500-mg) Capsules, USP, and (clarithromycin 500-mg) Tablets x 14 days with use of probiotics while on treatment is pretty convincing. It worries me that the risk of ulcer and cancer is 2-6 fold. So I'm inclined to follow the recommended Tx. Yet, I also think that if I've been living with this organism and not too inconvenienced then why not avoid the antibiotics and concentrate on probiotic and anti-inflammatory food as a recourse. Would you consider what I've written and tell me what you think? I also am considering seeking an appointment with an integrative medicine group through a local university for more input and guidance, especially for gut health restoration should I elect to take a course of antibiotics. As you can see I'm worried, ambivalent, and want to make the best over-all health decision. Again, Thank you.

Helico_expert
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Re: Live w/ H. pylore or Tx and restore gut bacteria

Post by Helico_expert » Sun Nov 20, 2011 8:51 pm

nothing has been proven to be able to remove H. pylori than antibiotic (and bismuth).

antibiotic is not as scary as you think.

i think you are trying be as natural as you can, but that doesnt mean you'll be stronger.

antibiotic treatment has been used for many decades before knowing the disturbance of the gut normal flora, i think majority of the population turns out ok.

i hate to use Steve Job as an example, but he is a good example of choosing alternative treatment on a treatable disease and turn out bad.

Barney Bartelle
Posts: 6
Joined: Sat Nov 19, 2011 2:42 am

Re: Live w/ H. pylore or Tx and restore gut bacteria

Post by Barney Bartelle » Tue Nov 22, 2011 1:51 am

Again, thank you. Is the Rx indicated in the last post efficacious? After Tx was is the recommended regime for restoration of the gut flora? Can H. pylori live in the mouth, small and large intestine? Do I need to ask my wife to test?

Helico_expert
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Re: Live w/ H. pylore or Tx and restore gut bacteria

Post by Helico_expert » Tue Nov 22, 2011 7:08 am

like your doctor said, the Tx treatment has a success rate of 80-70%, if you are from a developed country and antibiotics are not abused. i assumed you hardly expose yourself to any antibiotics, so i think the success rate will be high.

the recovery regime, any probiotic like yogurt, yacult, dairy, etc, will do.

as for you family, i think they should be tested too. although passing through kissing is not easy, it's hard to define how you kisses. the best way to infect other people is via vomit. if you or your wife vomit a lot, then it'll be pass around in the house. including kids. so my suggestion is to get everyone living together check.

as for the colonization of H. pylori. at the moment, we only found it in the stomach where there is almost no competition. in the other guts area, there are too many guts flora to compete for food and so colonization will be too difficult for a slow growing bacteria like H. pylori. nevertheless, H. pylori DNA has been detected from mouth and feaces. So, it's hard to say if they are really in the mouth and other guts region.

Barney Bartelle
Posts: 6
Joined: Sat Nov 19, 2011 2:42 am

Re: Live w/ H. pylore or Tx and restore gut bacteria

Post by Barney Bartelle » Tue Nov 22, 2011 10:31 pm

Thanks again for your helpful consideration of my dilemma. I will go forward with the Rx and ask the other family members to be tested. Then restoring my gut ecology will be the next challenge. For others who may read this post and have similar concerns, I recommend that a yogurt with a greater number of bacterial species be used instead of most available in supermarkets, and strongly suggest that kefir be used as it has far more bacteria than yogurt and includes beneficial yeasts. Other fermented foods that have not been subjected to vinegar. I may be preaching to the choir, but do your research and you'll see. I thought that in addition to these measures there may be some additional intervention of which you may know. I'm still curious about fecal bacteriotherapy because I know other vertebrates may engage in caprophagia when ill, and it's been with some modicum of success with folks suffer with Crohn's disease.

Barney Bartelle
Posts: 6
Joined: Sat Nov 19, 2011 2:42 am

Re: Live w/ H. pylore or Tx and restore gut bacteria

Post by Barney Bartelle » Tue Nov 29, 2011 4:43 am

I've begun antibiotic treatment for H. pylori. I've been prescribed 30 mg. Prevacid (lansoprazole) delayed release capsules, 500 mg. Biaxin filmtab (clarithromycin) tablets, and 500 mg.amoxicillin capsules, all of which come in a pack taken twice dailyy for one week.
Is this an effective regime?
Should it be over a two-week period not just one?

According to statements in this Forum, H. pylori dies soon after being exposed to air, yet does not live in water very long either; and that H. pylori only lives in the stomach. Yet it moves through the gut and is found in fecal matter.
Is that correct?
Is it found in dry feces also?
How do you know that it originated in E. Africa?
Are other primates afflicted with it?
Is it part of the archaeological record?
Can it be that it remains in the fecal matter of other vertebrates and is transmitted by way of leafy vegetables, roots, etc. that have been in contact with it and not washed with soapy water? For example, in California, there was an outbreak of E. coli attributed to unwashed lettuce from fields frequented by wild pigs, or that it had been washed and the bacteria adhered to the leaves.
Could the same be true for H. pylori; i.e., transmitted in this manner?
I take it that washing ever freshly grown comestible with soapy water is the most effective means by which to avoid further contact.

From what I've read in this Forum, the transmission of H. pylori through mouth-to-mouth kissing is highly unlikely, yet I also read that mothers transmit it to their children by means of saliva.
Which is the most accurate information?

After completing a antibiotic treatment how long does one wait before being retested for H. pylori according to your protocol?
Which is the most accurate test, breath or stool?
Is it true that detection by means of blood serum has the likelihood of being a false positive and therefore the least reliable?

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